Jake Simpson (00:00)
Happy years, DJ, has it been?

David Johnson (00:03)
Yeah, you know, I was just wondering how we even met. I don't even know exactly.

Jake Simpson (00:09)
Where actually I think we met through me, through Dave Taylor, I think. I think I came to your house with Dave Taylor. He had an event and I came and we just we sat and talked and it and I just remember being gobsmacked at your house in in Woodland Hills, yeah. Yeah. I should jump in. I'm gonna tell if you just this story. So DJ used to have an amazing house in Woodland Hills in the hills in the valley in California. You could actually see the Infinity Ward offices from his house, couldn't you remember? Yeah.

David Johnson (00:24)
Yeah.

Jake Simpson (00:39)
When I I caught I remember bringing a laser once, a high powered laser, and we could actually bounce it off the building, the the Infinity Ward building that is like miles away. But this house, it originally at some point it was owned by an actor on Bonanza, is that right?

David Johnson (00:53)
Yep, yep, that's right.

Jake Simpson (00:55)
This house, Dave and I was trying to work out how we could make this house more rock and roll than it already was. And about the only way we figured we could do it was by digging a digging a pool and driving a Rolls Royce into it.

David Johnson (01:07)
Yeah. I mean the the funny thing is it doesn't look like a lot from the front. It looks like it's you know, you drive up and it's like, okay, there's a you know, cheesy sixties rambler or whatever, and you get in and it's there's a dance floor and a stage and a wet bar and like, what the hell? Yeah.

Jake Simpson (01:25)
Full

bar attached to a stage. And and it's just and the thing about it as well was that you actually had it populated with stuff. It wasn't just a stage, it was staged with instruments. There was you know, it's like some band has just stepped off for like 15 minutes and they're having a break. The bar was completely loaded with alcohol. And at one point I remember you had was it eight PlayStation Fours with screens in there when you were playing when you were raiding?

David Johnson (01:49)
It was set up for I think six. I had six but between TVs and proper projector screens and then the the extras were like just, you know, a piece of like white paper that kind of pulled down from the the drop ceiling thing. But yeah, and I had, you know, three or four PlayStations that I could set up and and populate. So if other friends came over and had their own TVs and projectors then

Jake Simpson (02:14)
Yeah, you would do you were doing

David Johnson (02:17)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, whenever like you know a new Halo would come out or Destiny or whatever, we'd have we'd fucking set up. By the way, is it okay to swear? Yeah, we'd set land parties. That was that was a blast. Yeah, I'd have buddies over and we'd go like back to back and people on the sides and yeah, super fun. I missed land parties.

Jake Simpson (02:37)
It's worth it's worth saying that, you know, DJ is very much a p a a pie guy and I I love him for it. And every time I hang out with DJ, good times happen. I don't think I've ever, ever hung out with you where you've ever been miserable. I don't think that's ever happened. And and it's like I I can't put this strongly enough. DJ's a light in my life because there's so much in this world that's just so depressing and down, and DJ's always like, Why how are we gonna have a good time today? What are we gonna do today that's a good time? Even when you had a vegan, it's like that. It's fantastic. Anyway.

David Johnson (03:05)
Sorry.

Jake Simpson (03:06)
We've dated for a while. in fact you've you've started dating and been married since I've known you, which is pretty pretty awesome. And the wedding. Wow. I'm just not gonna get into that, but

David Johnson (03:20)
But there was one one the stupid story. There was there was a disturbance at our wedding at one point. We heard a crowd from the the next the place that we were at had like three different venues and you know the the they got a little rock raushus next door. Apparently that was Kanye's party. location we were at for our wedding.

Jake Simpson (03:45)
I remember lovely.

David Johnson (03:46)
Wow, now we're we're just name dropping now, are we here we go? whatever. I always have a great time with you too, Jake. You are always a blast and and you you are one well you are one of the people yeah, I mean likewise, right? I always have a blast with you. You are full of humor and fun and laughter every time it's out, so got it.

Jake Simpson (04:04)
Yeah. I'm all about it.

It helps I love your family too. great. Anyway, so now games, let's talk about games. Let's talk about history. You you bopped around a bit and you've worked on some pretty heavy juicy products, really, when you you get down to it. So w how did you start out? I mean, how old were you? What were you doing? How did it all come about for you?

David Johnson (04:25)
So, you know, sort of my my earliest was so I always kinda leaned in the art direction you know, in in elementary school, you know, I I would draw pencil stuff and and I remember like loving that and and my mom would submit my little drawings to to you know elementary school art contests and I'd win and so I always kinda had a a leaning in that direction. And then, you know, so fast forward

I did I was a horrible student. I did not graduate high school. I I dropped out. I think my freshman year, second semester, after my parents divorced, I had like five F's and a D. So I was like right out of the gate. I was way behind. So I almost graduated and and it was like my senior year trying to get caught up. I went to like an adult school to take extra credit, like night classes to to try to graduate.

I took my first desktop publishing class. Yeah, Cork Express and Illustrator.

Jake Simpson (05:26)
The days.

CTP as it was known at the time, right?

David Johnson (05:32)
Yeah, yeah, totally. And so that was my first little taste at computer art. And you know, I'd always drawn little D and D stuff and robots and care and little spaceship things and and you know, just all kind of kid stuff. But so now I'm in Adobe Illustrator making these really cool vector art of of like little robots and spaceships and I'm like, man, this is this is awesome. So that was sort of my first taste of it and then I

I didn't go to any sort of proper art school. I I kind of bopped around and failed out of junior college after failing out of high school. You know, fail my way up. Here we go.

Jake Simpson (06:10)
you you've you've certainly achieved it, wasn't it?

David Johnson (06:13)
Yeah. Yeah. You can fail up pretty well in the end. You know, eventually try to do my first year of junior college was, you know, proper like academic courses, algebra. I'd never passed pre algebra. I did I was not my brain was just not really cut out for math, which is kind of funny 'cause as an effects artist now that like there's a ton of math there, but just algebra, it was just abstract. My brain didn't grok it, but so I dropped out but

When I I went back, I took a second whack at junior college and ignored all the prerequisites and just took photography and television production and drawing and and every computer art class they had there. I learned Photoshop, like, man, that was super awesome. Took every computer class they had, and one of the guys I was in school with was like, Hey, you should check out Fullerton City. They also have some computer animation stuff that they're teaching. Like, yep, in applied, went there.

took every class they had. Another student was like, You should check out Santa Monica City. They have classes.

Jake Simpson (07:19)
So what I'm hearing here then is is not not a a bad student, a bored student. So the moment you had interest in something, you were going after it with every every fibre of your being, it seems.

David Johnson (07:29)
Abs yeah, for sure. Straight A's from the moment I started taking interested in some. So that was sort of the you know the beginning, and then I I Santa Monica City started this new program. I was the first year of it. the Academy of Entertainment Technology, they they began. And you you had to apply for it and submit a portfolio, which is kind of unheard of for a city college. That doesn't really happen. Like anyone can apply to any city college.

Jake Simpson (07:33)
When you want to introduce

David Johnson (07:56)
But I think two or three thousand people applied and they let two hundred in and I was one of them. I had some nice photography that I'd done that that they liked. So that got me in the door. So I started learning Maya and animation, and I was like pointed at, you know, doing film animation probably was sort of my my goal. And I didn't even finish that program. I got hired at a place called at first they were three name three D, but eventually they became Viewpoint Digital, merged into Viewpoint Digital, as a three D modeler. That was kind of my first

proper job doing computer graphic stuff. And it wasn't games specifically, it was more like web three D, vermal, which was, you know, a thing at the time. At that little blip at that moment, what is this? Like I don't know, ninety eight or something. Like, yeah, the web is gonna be all three D like any moment now.

Jake Simpson (08:46)
Yeah, right. What's that

happening? Yeah, what's that? Well, we've got web three whatever coming, whatever that is, but yeah. Right.

David Johnson (08:50)
Yeah.

Actually I I did have a little brief job ahead of that, like sort of between, you know, sort of my high school graduation and and the and and schooling where I worked as a colorist at at a company in Culver City called CST, colorizing black and white cartoons and movies and TV commercials. So that was really my first I was good at it and fast, but I could not take that it was a graveyard shift. There were like they had like twenty

multiple hundreds of thousands of dollar like silicon graphics workstations in the in the room. And so they were so expensive they had to basically have them operated twenty four seven. So I my you know I

Jake Simpson (09:37)
United Airlines at that point. Yeah. Making maximum use of them, yeah.

David Johnson (09:41)
Yeah, so man, I I remember just I I mean I would I would finish my shift in in the first ho I we'd had a quota and I'd kill it in the first hour of my shift and then I was just c I just couldn't stay awake. I I learned to like kind of put shades on and headphones and close my eyes. It was a very dark room and kinda twitch my finger every once in a while. And they didn't give a shit that I was sleeping most of my shift as long as I don't know. But I just couldn't take it, so I ended up quitting.

putting that after, I don't know, it's like only a few months working there, but that was that was a cool experience. But yeah, so viewpoint digital, that was 3D modeling. So I did that for a few years. A lot of the work was doing cars, modeling cars for car commercials using digitized like ferro arms, these massive like robotic arms that you would it was actually kind of fascinating. We'd we'd we'd lay out in this engineering tape over the whole car, the wireframe, and you began to like

dream and and like see things in wireframe because because your your eyeballs and your brain were processing that physically like that doesn't happen when it's come digital art but like when I we did we put a wireframe on a physical car and you'd sit inside of it and do the interior and like you would weirdly start to dream in wireframes.

Jake Simpson (10:59)
I dream in code on occasion. I would do I do dream in code on occasion. And I dream in I dream as well in features. Okay. Yeah, where I have a bit of a feature, where I have a bit of a feature and and and it it gets added to my dream as an extra bit of the dream as though it was a DLC pack that I just downloaded. I do actually have those dreams where you know I can tell that this bit has been added into the dream as a as a downloadable pack or something. Really depressing, but yeah, okay.

David Johnson (11:26)
Awesome. I I remember my roommate when I worked up in Seattle, I worked with a coder and like he he woke up in a sweat, he was on the couch and he was at work, he was working on some physics code and in his dream, like his physics code wasn't working, so it was falling through the couch in his dream. Yeah. Yeah, viewpoint digital, that that lasted a couple of years and then moved up to Seattle from there to wild tangent was my first sort of proper full time game job.

Jake Simpson (11:55)
Excellent John.

David Johnson (11:56)
Alex St. John, yeah, one of the creators of DirectX. He's he's a bit of a legend. That was a really fun job. But I did do a c I so my first game credits were at Viewpoint that I worked on Tomb Raider Revelations, which is I think the fourth one. I modeled the the head for the main villain of the game, Warner Von Croy.

Jake Simpson (12:18)
You didn't do any boobs then.

David Johnson (12:20)
no, no b no no boom mode. No jiggle physics, no. and Microsoft baseball. So those are my first first two games worked on and then went up to Wild Tangent was there for about five years, I think. super fun job. Learned every aspect of of game art because we were I worked in the adver adver gaming division where we'd have to make a game every like four months or so.

With with about three or four people. So we just we just cranked games out. It was pretty it was pretty insane. So I got a a ton of, you know, various

Jake Simpson (12:57)
Like working for s Alex and John. I mean, I hear that I mean, I've met him a couple of times and he has a massive personality. He's he's got a personality bigger than the room almost, you know?

David Johnson (13:06)
Yeah, he absolutely does. He he is he is larger than life, yeah, character. I it was a blast, I I gotta say. I mean, th the the work isn't you know, the the legacy of Wild Tangent isn't exactly prestigious, right? You know, like pol Polar Bowler and and you know, a couple a couple you know, they're you know, just small, you know, mini indie hit kinda things for its time and I worked on a lot of

silly games they're like I usually win the the award for worked on the dumbest thing. I I may ha I I was art directed the the Axe Body Spray Mojo Master video game where

Jake Simpson (13:48)
Is that where you sort of run around and spray people unsuspectingly?

David Johnson (13:51)
No. It was like a hit on chicks video game where like it's card based, so like you have a deck of cards and like you play a move and your move would be like like cringy line or grab her butt or like horrible, horrible.

Jake Simpson (14:08)
Miss Masculinity of the game.

David Johnson (14:10)
yeah, and and the and the the the woman who's the producer on that with me was like we were both yeah, pretty horrified about the whole thing the whole time. Pretty cringy stuff. Yeah, but Alex was was great. He he was larger than life and he was sweet to to us. He was generous and a lot of the hires were implants from other states, so he'd have Thanksgiving where people who didn't have family in town could come to his house and it was great. I I I like

Jake Simpson (14:37)
Nice.

David Johnson (14:39)
Alex a lot. I have a lot of respect for him. He's he's a boisterous dude for sure. And is well known for that. But so that yeah, we've worked there for about five years, still have really close friends from from there. I love a lot of those people a lot. And then went to FASA from there under Microsoft Game Studios, worked on Shadow Run, which is despite having done much bigger titles, that's probably my favorite game to play that I've ever worked on.

it was not critically well received, its numbers were low, but like that game was so so good.

Jake Simpson (15:14)
Is that is that post or prior Mech Warrior two?

David Johnson (15:19)
Way later. Yeah.

Jake Simpson (15:21)
Okay. I I have to interrupt you 'cause I don't know if I've ever told you the story about me interviewing at FASA. Did you I interviewed that?

David Johnson (15:28)
I don't think so.

Jake Simpson (15:30)
so this was post Raven, I think. So this would have been about two thousand one, I think. I think it was about two thousand one.

David Johnson (15:36)
That should they well they were they came out of Chicago.

Jake Simpson (15:39)
Yeah, they were originally in Chicago because they had the the VR pods where you could play the the Mars race and and then a Mech Mech game. And they got bought by Chicago. Yeah. There were a whole bunch of them. There's one on Napier. I used to go there a lot on NapyPier. Because there's an Amiga inside of it as well, by the way, if you don't know that. Anyway, so I got interviewed, I got asked to go and interview for a technical director job on Mech Warrior. I think it was I think it was bef after Mech Warrior two and before Mech Warrior three. And I went

To Seattle and I went to, you know, at the time, like Microsoft, you rented a car at the airport, they they've rented a car for you, you arrive at the hotel and there is a piece of paper on the hotel which basically says you need to be at this place, at this time, this building, studio whatever, studio nine or whatever, building nine. I think nine was the HR building, I think. At this time and meet with this person. So you go, you arrive, and they literally just say, Okay, right, well, they go over your resume quickly and they go, Right, here's your list. And they give you a list of of names up until two o'clock in the afternoon. Every hour.

You have and they tell you what building you are, and then they give you a map. And you have to manage your own time and find the people that you have to interview with. So you have to go from building to building and go, right, I'm looking for you go up the front, I'm looking for such and such, they'll call you and you go and sit there. And I remember having lunch. So lunch was an interview, and I didn't actually get to eat. We went and got sandwiches, we sat down and the guy just peppered me with questions. He had a big pad and peppered me with questions. And every time I picked up a sandwich to actually eat something, he'd ask me a question, I put it down again, answer the question. And I never actually got to eat anything.

But the funny thing about it was they have this thing then called as appropriate. So after two o'clock, if you were considered a serious candidate, the two o'clock guy would then point you at the next guy. And then you go to the next guy. And if they he considered you worth it, he would point you on to the next guy until you you be and you're going up the chain at this point, until I got to the director of the whole whole thing. And this guy, the last guy I took spoke to, I was gonna have half an hour with him. It was five o'clock, and there was only supposed to go until five thirty.

And it turns out he'd worked on the original in television. I don't know if you know who it was, but I can't remember his name. But he'd worked on the original in television. And I'm sitting there chatting about the you the fact that I've collected these things and see the fact that the television was originally called Sears and you know it wasn't in television. Sears funded it. They funded the first thirty thousand units. We sat talked and eventually he picks up his phone at about five twenty five and calls his wife and tells he's going to be late home for dinner. And care we carried on talking for another like half hour. So we've gone, I a full hour out of this guy.

David Johnson (17:39)
Awesome.

Jake Simpson (18:03)
And I remember coming out the interviews going, Yeah, I think I'd done I think crack this. I think I it. Yeah, no problem. And I go to dinner that night with Tom Forsyth, I think, had just come into town and there were a whole bunch of other people. Okay. And and I and they said, What are you doing in town? And I said, I'm I'm here for this FASA technical director position. And then the somebody at the dinner table goes, you're not getting that and I'm like, What?

I thought I did really well. I got through all the as appropriates. I spent an hour with the end guy, not half an hour. And they Yeah, but it's already promised to somebody on the team. This is HR crossing the you know, ticking the the box. That's who this is. This already the position's already been promised. You're not getting it because somebody on the team's already getting it. HR's just going through the process. And I'm like, Well, that sucks and I didn't get the job. I wonder how my life would have been different had I, but anyway.

David Johnson (18:48)
Yeah. so so Tom Holmes, Jam Elberson, those were a couple of the the sort of head guys, Bart at at FASA when I was there anyway. and then yeah, Mitch Gittleman was the sort of studio head. yeah, I loved it. FASA was great. That was a lot of fun. We we made a a cool game. And and yeah, I my my memory too of of Microsoft interview process was was kind of similar to that. And and I think basically like ever every session

Jake Simpson (18:57)
Remember that yeah.

David Johnson (19:18)
would communicate with the next guy. Yeah. And i if anyone gave the thumbs down, it ends. Yeah. You're set home. So if you make it to the last guy, it's almost like a job. But yeah, you know, it happens. So it's there a couple of years fastest shutdown at that point at the end of that production, which is a bummer. super, super talented team. And then

Yeah, it was kind of a weird th like kind of set of circumstances next for me. I ended up I landed at Bungie for a while working on Halo three, which was like, my goodness. Okay. This is a dream job. Yes.

Jake Simpson (20:01)
You have to hide your erection every time you're going to work, right?

David Johnson (20:03)
Yeah, and and it was so Steve Scott was was to be my manager there at at at Bungie and I was buddies with him from East Side and West Side Industry Nights. So so a lot of the a lot of the game dev community in Seattle.

Jake Simpson (20:16)
Did you know that the the place the it's just literally shut down? The bar they used to hold those at? Rivellos or something, Riv Rivios or something? It's just literally shut down. I saw a notice about that today, which really sucks, but no.

David Johnson (20:30)
bummer. they they used to it was a different place when I was going there. I mean this is you know what twelve twelve years ago now, but the garage, I think on the west side, and then what was that bar right next to Bungie? was it yeah, I forget the name of it, but yeah, we used to go there all the time. Anyway, so so I was buddies with Steve Scott, and he was kind of the one that encouraged me to apply to FASA and got the job there. So at the end of FASA

He was like man, we we need a effects help so bad we're trying to get this

Jake Simpson (21:03)
So so by this time you are now doing effects.

David Johnson (21:06)
Yeah, so FAFSA was my first full time I am an effects artist job. And so that was about two thousand five.

Jake Simpson (21:14)
What does that mean? I what is an effect artist? 'Cause that's relatively new position in terms of of specialization. It's relatively new. So so what what is

David Johnson (21:24)
yeah, that's a good question. And and w one little fun twist, maybe I'll speak to you a little bit too, is the terminology in games and film like kind of weirdly and subtly deviates. So so an effects artist in games and an effects artist in film are kind of two different things. So so basically an effects artist in games is responsible for the explosions, the spells, the weather.

Anything that's not a hard surface or character. So if it's not an environment or a plant or a weapon or a vehicle or a character, if it's dust or mist, anything like that, the effects artists are gonna create that. Yeah, all the impacts, all the blood that comes out of the

Jake Simpson (22:05)
Gibs, all the gibs and stuff like that, yeah, right. Yeah. Okay.

David Johnson (22:09)
And it's usually two or three parts to it. There's there's the particle systems, which defines like, okay, you know, someone gets shot, a blood little bit squirts out, and so you gotta define how many spawn and what their what the the angle of spray is and what the

Jake Simpson (22:24)
they go out, what kind of gravity effects and that kind of thing?

David Johnson (22:26)
Yeah,

drag from air, you know, air friction and all that stuff. So you're kind of defining physics stuff a little bit. Or in the case of like magical spells in a in a fantasy game, you know, you're doing all the So same thing, there's particle work that's that's, you know, how do things move through space and time? There's also material work, which is to say that what are those things that are moving through space and time look like. So you might take a texture of like glowy stuff.

And then pass a noise through it so it perturbs and distorts it over time. And then add a little thing that masks little dots that then sparkle and so you're you're building node networks for materials is another part of that part of that job.

Jake Simpson (23:10)
You know, it's funny, Susan, I think you've I've ever asked you that question before and you've never described it to me like that. And I just find that utterly fascinating. You just totally encapsulated a a a large section of what video games are today. And it utterly fascinating. Please keep going.

David Johnson (23:26)
Or or if you want to just give the the crass shorthand answer, we we blow shit up and we make it rain.

That's that's a that's a fun way to describe to describe the job. And and in games like the a visual effects artist, maybe your title or effects artist. In film visual effects is represents like the whole Marvel movie is is a is you know, there's there's the the shoot and then and then there's post production, which is all the effects and magic and and and

Jake Simpson (23:59)
Everything else.

David Johnson (24:05)
Flying characters and all that stuff. All of that is visual effects. So so in film, the the animators fall under visual effects, the environment artists.

Jake Simpson (24:13)
Yeah, so for example, somebody's hair or or or somebody's rippling cloak is not going to be considered visual effects inside of a video game, whereas it would in a movie.

David Johnson (24:22)
That's correct. Yeah. So cloth sim typically falls under tech art or or sometimes code in in a video game. But yeah, so in video game, if you say a visual effects artist, you mean those guys that are doing the particles and material for for the game.

Jake Simpson (24:39)
So now you're you know, by the time you get to to to Bungee on Halo three, that's what you're doing.

David Johnson (24:44)
Yep, yep. Yeah, FASA was full time. I did a little bit of it at Wild Tangent. There was a little particle editor that I really took to and enjoyed using, and there was a little DX9 like very old school material editor with four layers that you could combine with add or multix or multiple. Yeah. you can do little reflection dx you know, textures you could put in. So I I was kind of the guy that that

Jake Simpson (25:04)
Additive or multiplied, yeah, pre multiplied.

David Johnson (25:13)
that sort of took to those sort of things. So when when the various team there's maybe eight games in production at any one time at Wild Tangent. So if people needed like effects stuff, I kinda became the go-to guy a little bit 'cause I just kind of took to it. And then at FASA, that was my first like full time I'm an effects artist. That's all I do, job. Yeah. And then yeah, over to Bungie for Halo 3. And I could go on a whole tangent about you know how I ended up

leaving there. If you wanna get into that. But Halo Three was a really fun, fun production.

Jake Simpson (25:47)
I've heard a story. Now I don't know this is true, and maybe you would know this, but I heard a story that I think this may have been Halo 2, actually. I'm not even sure if it's Halo 3, but at some point there was there was going to be a system that allowed clans, if you're playing Halo as a clan, like as a team, it allowed team members to upload an image that ended up a patch on their shoulders. Right? So you could right. But

David Johnson (26:15)
That's not gonna ship.

Jake Simpson (26:19)
Because apparently it never even it it never even got out there because when they were testing at Bungie itself, the one of the first images that was uploaded was a purple penis as the patch image. And Bungie basically looked at it and went, If we can't even trust ourselves not to abuse this picture, really this can't go out into the world, can it now? So I've heard that story a couple of times and I believe that's video games in a nutshell for but yeah.

David Johnson (26:45)
I've got I I've got t two memor like I my I got a few memorable stories from the bungee days now. What you know, what am I was supposed to talk about or not supposed to talk about, but I'll I'll I'll throw out a few. It's been long enough that I don't think anybody gives a shit anymore. But there was god, what was his name? Was it Frankie? No, it was Frankie or one the other guys. There was the the million dollar ass photo. So that was so in Halo two, I think it was, they shipped the PC version of it.

with mod tools and Bungie didn't do that. They hired some s third party team to do it. And in the in the editor that Bungie used internally, never intending for public release at all, you know, there's a few jokes in there.

Jake Simpson (27:36)
This is the lead engineer's bomb, right? Engineers bomb. Yeah.

David Johnson (27:38)
Yeah.

Yeah, he there he took a photo with Steve Ballmer on stage at some event and like mooned the crowd and there's a photo of that and and I think I think in the editor it is cropped so you don't see his h his shiny booty at all. But but if you know you sort of crack the file itself with, you know, the DX texture tool or something.

You could open it and you can see the whole thing. And there was another one that was I won't get into what what what distasteful stuff it was it. There's another distasteful photo in it. So because the company that that you know Microsoft hired to sort of port the the editor to to be public facing and usable by the public to make their own maps, I I think one of them I I believe was a non uniform scale.

like in 3D Studio Mac because there was like the editor and then the Max plugin to get models into the Bungie editor. And I think if you tr took a model with this thing up and you try to non uniform scale it, like engine doesn't support that. So so don't do it. So a dialogue came up with a, you know i inappropriate image in the the error message. Anyway, so both of this these shipped in the Halo two PC thing. So the

Jake Simpson (28:50)
An error message.

David Johnson (29:03)
it there it was basically found out by I don't know was it the ESRB or something and and there was a recall on Halo two PC and they had to take all of the boxes back and put in another a sticker on the boxes that changed its rating. Because the game because it shipped with nudity, it shipped with his butt.

Jake Simpson (29:26)
Yeah the the studio that did that, I believe, was Pi Studios out of Texas because that was run by my friend Dan Kramer and I remember him telling me about this. So yeah. Okay. All right.

You know, I have a a great story from a friend of mine who who had an activation studio that shall remain nameless. And he produced tools and still does produce tools now for all of Activision Studios. And he would on occasion, just because he's sitting by himself in a room, he'd have fun and he would put into error messages, he'd have a one in fifty chance that it would play a sound sample that was only resident on his machine. So you could not find this. If you tried to look through the installation on your machine, you wouldn't find this sound sample.

Where it called you a stupid bastard or a stupid fucking user or something like that. One out of every 50. And it was only done as well on specific logins. So it wasn't done randomly, it was done for specific people, and it would do it once in fifty times. And you couldn't find the actual sound sample because it was on his machine. And if his machine was turned off, it wouldn't do it. But if his machine was turned on, it would actually go to his machine, play that sound sample. This individual shall remain nameless, but yeah, he

you know, I've got to believe that making tools every day is gotta be boring as shit and you've got to live not be live somehow. But anyway, yeah, okay. So Halo three.

David Johnson (30:46)
I've got one you know, we haven't got to my Call of Duty Infinity War days yet, but w one one similar little rare Easter egg that I put in and I'm bummed that I didn't ship it. I actually pulled it out before we shipped, but the gulag level where you go down into the gulag and you you know, you rescue Captain Price and and that's a pretty awesome scene. The the breach that you do, you put you put charges on the the stone wall and breach in, I did that effect.

Super proud of that. That was I the first breach in a Call of Duty game. but the the lockers, I had animated all the lockers, like if if a grenade goes off or you shoot them, the the locker doors would like boop, boop. And I made like three different animations for how far they would go and swing and and you know, gym equipment and toilet paper and like you know, random stuff would come out. I put a one in a hundred chance, someone had made a blow-up doll model, I don't know what for.

But I stuck it on a I stuck it on a particle and gave it a one in a hundred chance that a blow up doll would pop out of the the thing the the locker when you shot it or or through Grenadier. And when we were doing our E three reveal of the game, it was that level and I'm like, dude, if if like if that one in a hundred chance pops, I am so fired. So like I turned it it's still like set up and in there and like just enable that layer and it will happen again.

But yeah, that that'd have been a fun one to have turned back on.

Jake Simpson (32:18)
Yeah, listener, these are the quality of my friends.

David Johnson (32:23)
Dump dumb stuff. Making games is is fun.

Jake Simpson (32:27)
Right, so back to Halo three. So you here you are at Bungie dancing and d and wearing your money hat.

David Johnson (32:35)
no, I didn't wear a money hat at all. so I my my circumstances were a little peculiar because I was not a formal Bungie employee. I was I was technically still on FASS payroll a studio that no longer existed and on loan to Bungie. And they extended my end date, my termination date past what the rest of the employees had and so yeah, I was there for the like sort of final push.

It wasn't too long, four months, something like that. But I had a blast there. Ste Steve with and and Gronk were super fun to work with. The whole team is th those guys are just amazing human beings and super fun. And we'd work all day and into the night and then go to the bar afterwards. It was it was a blast. I very fond memories of that. But yeah, it was a there was a weird be because of my strange facet arrangement, my termination date came up and and I'm like, Okay, well

You know, you need effects, the game's not done. Like, how about transfer me or hire me? Yeah. And they're like, No, we're gonna offer you a contract. And I'm like, no. I don't wanna do that. Like, just hire me. Like, what's the problem here? What I did not know is behind the scenes, this is when they were leaving Microsoft. There was a no solicit, no hire like thing going on. So they couldn't hire me. And they couldn't tell me that they couldn't hire me. So I was like

Jake Simpson (33:53)
that's why I didn't want an employee.

David Johnson (34:03)
What the fuck? Just get me a job.

So yeah, it like they offered me they're like, Okay, we'll put you know, we'll have you on as a contractor. I'm like, Okay, well that's not what I want, but if you're gonna do that, like here's okay, well let me add up all the overtime

Jake Simpson (34:20)
Yeah, it's my alley right, you're not gonna like this.

David Johnson (34:22)
And let me actually charge you for that then. I I and in my head I'm like I'm like I'm trying to make hire me look like the attractive, the appealing option. I having no idea. Like they were so tight lipped. I was in that building right along those guys, drinking every night, had no ink inkling whatsoever that they were just about to leave. But so yeah, I I d they basically yeah, there was a weird deal too where in order for me

to con to to take the contract. It's a little blurry. It was so long ago, but I basically would have had to quit Microsoft and flush my severance down the toilet, which would have been about 20 grand. So I'm like, why do this does not make any sense? I'm not flushing 20 grand, yeah. Like for for not a job. Like, what are you talking about? So I told him no

They they they said they said no to my rate and they said that they would pay me this and and that included me having to eat about twenty grand. So I'm like, I'm not doing that. And then so I took about four months, you know, curled up in the corner watching all of Battlestar Galactica. like one like, what did I do? I just gave you know, I just turned away like my dream job. you know, I'm a huge Halo fanboy. I still to this day play quite a lot.

But that led to going to Infinity Ward in Activision.

Jake Simpson (35:53)
Okay, just before you jump into that, I I've got to say, you say you're a Halo fanboy. so I actually have to tell you a story, and I don't think I've ever told you this either. now my youngest son, Carolyn and I, when he was much, much younger, we had a real hard time communicating. We had a really hard time getting on with each other. He, you know, I was always on his case and he was always reacting to me, and it was a not a good situation. And the only thing that we could do that we didn't argue about, we didn't get frustrated, we do and enjoy together, was play video games, co-op.

video games, right? Because he was young and we wanted to play them together. And the the most fun I think I've ever had playing a video game was with Cameron when we played through Halo from start to finish. We went all the way through from one to four with all Halo Reach and and the other one in it. so you were part of that. You were part of the communication the the the fact that I could actually still talk to my son. I mean we have a great relationship now there's no doubt about it. But that during that time that was really really hard for us to communicate

Halo was it, it was what we were playing. We even went and bought a an Xbox one just to play Halo four. 'cause we couldn't you know, it didn't want work on the three sixty, but we played all the way through all of them. So, you know, feel good about that. You know, you help me talk to my son, which is a lovely thing.

David Johnson (37:06)
I I'm I'm pleased to have played a very tiny role. That's great.

Jake Simpson (37:12)
infinity board.

David Johnson (37:14)
Yeah, yeah. So after you know, I took a few months off to just kinda decompress from the sh FASA studio shutdown and and n not ending up.

Jake Simpson (37:24)
Needed

to know who the the last four Cylons were.

David Johnson (37:28)
Yeah. That show is great. I love that show. It's phenomenal. So yeah, I just sat around and, you know, dated a girl and and watched a lot of TV for a few months. And then I don't know, two, four months later I'm like, okay, well, I'm gonna have to get a job at some point. Okay, like chill out for a while. It's like when you're a kid, you get summer vacation every every year. When you're a grown up, it's between jobs is is the only time you have off. And and often I don't think people don't have the luxury to to really like

Enjoy it and chill out and relish 'cause there's the stress of like money will run out. depending on how much you have saved up, but but Microsoft's treated us well and I had the luxury of a that nice little severance. So so anyway, yeah, time time to an interview. So I applied it. I think nine companies, including Raven, where we used to work, had a great interview out there with Madison, Wisconsin at at the mission and other places. I think I got I got seven offers out of the nine interviews I went on.

Wow. And I picked Infinity Ward, who at the moment was not a like a massive deal like they became. They had only shipped Call of Duty two at that point, which I thought was a phenomenal game. I had that that was part of the decision was that was the of all the places that I had offers at, it was the only one where I had played one of their games from start to end. Which doesn't happen that frequently, you know, as time goes on.

Jake Simpson (38:56)
Yeah, the older you get, the less time you have for that. But yeah, I agree. I think the the first Call of Duty though, to me, since I was around at that time making first person shooters at Raven and stuff, was outstanding. It was a a study in how to do it properly. I I I rate it far higher, frankly, than Half Life. While Half Life was groundbreaking, I still think Call of Duty and Call of Duty two were superior in in implementation, vision, all of it. Just that team really gelled.

David Johnson (38:59)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I mean there there there are so many master classes that could come out of that. Yeah. Those guys work for sure. Yeah. So throw a potato with your I'm like, Yes. That was that's like that's it like really just it it set the tone, it put you in the it it's this is like a realistic take on it, even though, you know, looking back at the graphics now.

compared to the latest World War Two one, you it's it's the world's apart, but yeah, it was those are those are great games. So yeah, I landed at Infinity Ward. That was that was a good move.

Jake Simpson (40:06)
Both from a from a financial point of view and also from a drama point of view.

David Johnson (40:11)
Yeah, yeah, that's true. Which, you know, one thing that's that's interesting about my time there was like it it was, you know, the best of times the worst of times, right? Like yeah. Like Modern Warfare so I started at the very tail end of Modern Warfare one, like literally like about a month or two before it shipped. so I didn't really do anything on it. I did some DLC but so Modern Warfare two is my first full production there. And that was the the easiest s I mean the easiest, smoothest

production I've ever been on. There was n almost no crunch at all. Wow. So so crunch there so it was about seventy-five people on the dev side. And there was, if my memory's correct, there was about two weeks crunch before the the the E3 reveal and about a month and a half crunch before ship, before Golden Gold. And crunch there meant ten hour days instead of eight hour days. Wow.

There was never a weekend worked. I think by next to anybody, maybe somebody came in, but n there was yeah. Mild as hell.

Jake Simpson (41:18)
In in contrast, I should say when

I was working on Sims Two, EA actually got to the point of hiring someone to come in and take your laundry for you and go and do your laundry for you because you didn't have time to go and do laundry. That was how intense the crunch was on Sims Two at the end of it.

David Johnson (41:37)
Yeah. So it doesn't have to be that way.

Jake Simpson (41:41)
Well, I mean yeah, but let's also look at the fact that modern warfare was a known known quantity. You knew what you were making. You weren't reinventing the wheel or or anything like that from you know, it was it wasn't necessarily more of the same, but it was a bit more of the same. So I think it that's an eminently more plannable schedule, I think, than creating something from nothing that's never been done before.

David Johnson (41:59)
Yeah, a a sequel on a not new platform like generation jump. Like that's like, right, this is you know, we're basically, you know, doing some new levels and putting a little bit of new tech in. But but it was a far contrast from, you know, the last big production at Infinity Word where, man, I think and no one mandated me do this, but you know, I as a lead there at in in the end, I kinda just felt responsible to pull all the pieces together and get the game out the door. So I think I

I think I there was a there was a period after my wedding where I think I worked for about five months straight with about two days off in that time. So it was otherwise seven days a week and I was basically sleeping there. I was at, you know, two in the morning is about when I'd finished work. Yeah.

Jake Simpson (42:45)
I I do remember actually coming by sometimes, 'cause I was spending a lot of time in LA at that time. and coming by sometimes and it would you know, you you'd come in and I could see you you were stressed and you were tired and you know, you'd I'd be sitting talking with Dina or sorry, Elsa now. I forgot she she's renamed herself. Elsa. I'd be sitting there talking with her or something and waiting for you to come in, you come in and you'd just be haggard. I remember that. And I remember looking at you thinking, God, I'm so glad I don't have to do this anymore. but yeah, I remember that.

Mind you then, I wasn't living in the you know, the the wonderful house in LA that you were, so you were you know, it's you were paying for

David Johnson (43:18)
Yeah, there is there was upsides to it. And then now here we are both having started our our own companies and all the good and bad of that.

Jake Simpson (43:26)
We should get to that in a minute.

So so you were there then during the the upheavals where where a lot of the people quit and there was all this, you know, Activision versus Infinity Ward issues and all that rest of that, yeah.

David Johnson (43:41)
Yeah, and I'm probably one of the few people that are not legally tied to to not speak about it too. Everyone that about so so of of seventy-five devs, about half the team so they fired Jason and Vents, the studio heads, which were our, you know, fearless leaders. they were very, very well regarded in in Infinity Ward. Just about every lead left. I think maybe two or or so didn't.

Yeah, half the team was gone and there was class action lawsuit and and royalties were withheld and it was a big, big hot mess. and everyone on the other side that went to respawn, they s formed respawn from all that. I I believe in the settlements they're all legally obligated to not speak about it publicly. But I can't if you have questions.

Jake Simpson (44:34)
No, no particularly. I mean, you know, it's it's been fairly well documented. There were massinations on both sides, obviously, you know, Activision suggesting that that they set up a a fake fire alarm to get everyone out of the building so they could they could get a guy in there and and ri get copies of the email servers that they weren't sharing. Activision even though it was an Activision studio, they had their own email server that was not shared with Activision or whatever and and certain Activision producers were banned from entering the building, I believe, as well, at certain points.

So there was there was a breakdown of relationship there without a shadow of doubt. and I suspect that, you know, from my point of view externally, obviously I'm not there, but it seems like it's six of and a half a dozen other the other. It's like, you know, a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B. I've I've seen how Activision can behave and it's not been great, but then I've also seen how some developers can behave and it can be not be great too. And I remember Jason West once saying to me that when dealing with the the money built built people.

You must always hold the b be prepared to have blood on the floor. Which I thought was like, well, that's fairly antagonistic, isn't it? You know, I mean it's a very antagonistic kind of point of view to take. So I mean I don't know. Who knows what it was? You were there, I didn't see it. But from the outside it certainly looked like there was some heavy handedness. But I'm not gonna ask you to comment on that for obvious reasons, you know. It was just everyone in the rest of the industry was sitting there watching this. And you have to understand as well, the sheer volume of money at stake. I think the people who left they were asking for the for their

Thirty five million, was it? The people who left? Or was that just what Jason and and Vince were asking for? I don't even remember.

David Johnson (46:10)
I I think Jas my v and this could be looked up pretty easily. My my vague memory of it is something like I I think Jason and Vince I think those numbers are pretty close because you know, it was about, you know, a million apiece for people that stayed. Jason and Vince, I think individually we're gonna get three million, ten million, something like that. And then, you know, each each person that left leads were probably, you know, owed around

Yeah or or had expected to get from Ralties about a million or so.

Jake Simpson (46:45)
I these are big numbers. This is well this is life changing numbers. This is life changing. So it's you know it's not an inconsiderable amount of money all slapped together when you put it together. Although I don't think at this point for Activision it was necessarily about the money, I think it was about control. they wanted control of the IP and they didn't have it because of the way that Jason and Vince were were conducting the you know the business.

David Johnson (47:04)
And and negotiating their contracts, right? Like even though they were officers of the company, they they are on a per they they do still well, they did sign game to game contracts to continue. I think it's sort of kind of bit in the end, right? Where where they they in order to sign, they they asked for, you know, strong controls on like it th their baby, right? What what they considered their Infinity Ward made

Call of Duty One regarded it as like their thing. And and so I I know at one point they had negotiated that like the the time frames because so modern had come out and so their an anything from like nineteen seventy, something like essentially like after Vietnam forward, only Infinity Ward could do, not the other studios that they were having do in the off years. So and I think they had built in

to their contracts to like it's it's functionally executive sign off so that like if the other games they did not regard them as up to snuff, they could have them not ship. Like like pretty unprecedented controls, right? And and finally Yeah, I think I think that they were able to negotiate that much power for themselves almost made them kind of a threat in a way.

Jake Simpson (48:13)
Draconian kind of

David Johnson (48:28)
And a and a danger, right? It put a target on yeah.

Jake Simpson (48:32)
Okay. Well, I mean, I don't know. It's it's one of those things where, you know, this happened. But you you did stick around though. You stuck around and didn't not go to to respawn in the end.

David Johnson (48:40)
Well, I th that's how it ended up. I was I was pointed at respawn. I I met with Jason after that. There was there were no solicit, you know, stuff in all of the Studiohead and Lee's contracts, so that they couldn't contact anyone at Infinity Ward to like kind of woo woo them over. But if anyone asked the to set up a meeting, you know, we all had each other's contact info, right? So

So I set up a a meeting with Jason and I met him at Starbucks and he had me sign a thing that's like, I did not I didn't contact you, you contacted me. I'm like, Yeah I

Jake Simpson (49:18)
Yeah, this is consensual, say.

David Johnson (49:20)
Exactly. Yeah. I I consent. And I had a chat with them and and we what the agreement that we talked about was you know, I wanna come over. I don't think and and I thought I was doing what was kind of a smart thing, right? Which is to say, you you guys probably need some time for pre production. You probably don't need the entire team right now. So why don't I just sit in Infinity Ward? Why don't I just camp for six months, suck down from sweet, sweet you know, royalties

for a minute, while you guys figure out what the game is and then once production starts. So this was kind of like it's probably around March, April that year. So I talked to them like, so why don't I give you guys six months or something and then, you know, I'll come over like November, December after I've taken like, you know, maybe two three rounds of the royalties that they ended up not paying and coming up some weird, you know, s schedule overtime thing. But

The the big drop was gonna be like six months down the road. So I'm like, why I just come over right after that? Give you guys time to set up the studio and figure out what the game is. Perfect. Talk to you in six months. And then so I dropped out of the class action suit. I was on it originally. I'm like, I'm gonna stay in there and collect most of it anyway. So I don't need to be in a class action. And then November came around and I contacted the recruiter and I did not get a response.

I'm like, okay, I'm ready to come over. And Crickets. Crickets. I think you know, and I I it kinda haunted me for a long time. I didn't know like what did did I suck? They didn't they didn't you know they

Jake Simpson (50:57)
Thinking there on the

Was

it the fact that you didn't drop everything immediately and run to them or you know, I mean who knows what that went might have been? Did you ever find out?

David Johnson (51:07)
I did end up having a a a drink with with the recruiter way down the line and I think they just they weren't at a I I think it was still too early. They weren't ready to hire more people yet. I think they said that they that it came up internally. Do we bring DJ over? And I think that this is what I was told is that they don't have effects work yet. So and effects is kinda late in the chain anyway, so

Jake Simpson (51:33)
You need to have a you need to have levels built and action occurring in that level before you can actually put effects into it.

David Johnson (51:38)
Yeah.

And I think part of it may have been too that they kind of stopped taking people over at one point. They s like there's just this trickle of people leaving and going respawn and and at one point with all the lawsuits going on it became problematic like you guys are still pulling people over, like what's up? There's non solicit stuff and

Jake Simpson (52:02)
You look

bad and it's like it's just easier to cut the wall, you know, to put a wall in place and then you know there can be no arguments about it. Yeah. Yeah, I can see that. I can see that. Makes sense. I see that. Pragmatic.

David Johnson (52:12)
I'm

like, all right, well I guess I'll stay and just keep making call of duty.

Jake Simpson (52:16)
And get an enormous royalty chips. I you it's the let's be clear. Now, I mean let's let's talk about Call of Duty a little 'cause it is a behemoth, it is a juggernaut. And what Activision has done with it net once they gained and wrestled control from Jason and Vince, you know, it has been almost yearly production on it. there's Call of Duty online now as well, in and it's huge in in China. I know that Raven's been used to do an awful lot of work on that. I don't think they do any more, but they used to do a lot of that there's

Trach's still producing, you know, complete Call of Duty products. And it is a huge behemoth that generates billions of dollars. There's no doubt about it. and also, I mean, I know when I was at Raven, you know, we never saw a royalty check from anything because A, they I don't know whether they sold enough, but when they did sell enough products like Star Trek, Elite Force or Jedi Knight or Soldier Fortune, they're all licenses, which means that quite a lot of the profit from that gets funneled back into the license owner, like you know.

Lucas made all the money from from Jedi Knight and Paramount certainly made all the money from from Star Trek Leap Force. So we didn't see any bonuses at all. I was there, I didn't see anything really. I mean stock was nice, don't get me wrong, but the bonuses, yeah, non existent. But the moment they started working on Call of Duty products, everyone at Raven started getting bonuses again and more power to them. I'm really glad for them. I think it's a great thing. It makes you know, it be encourages you to stick around. So Call of Duty is a it's a rain making, money making endeavor.

And it seems evergreen, that's the weird thing. I would have thought that by now we'd have had Call of Duty fatigue, but we don't seem to have. Isn't that weird?

David Johnson (53:50)
Yeah, I mean I I mean there th so yeah, some some things

can and can't talk about just from my you know obligations as as a a former lead of there. But yeah, you know, I I think it's it's it it's waxed and waned a little bit, right? Like I think I think the peak was probably Modern Warfare two or three, or or maybe Black Ops one or so. There was definitely like its moment in the in the the sunshine. It's there's a lot of other competition now too. So

But now like Warzone has has really spiked it up again. I think Warzone's doing really well.

Jake Simpson (54:32)
Yeah, it's just cool. I mean it taps into the bike guys, I know. It it just does it in such an effective way. but now it's all you are you are post Activision, you have your own company, Undertone. Undertone FX, yes, and you're based out of where? You're in Georgia now, Savannah, Georgia, is that right?

David Johnson (54:49)
yeah, Savannah, Georgia. Beau beautiful Savannah.

Jake Simpson (54:53)
And yet you are producing that you are basically a visual effects outsourcing company for video games, is that right? So how many products do you do you you know are you dealing with at a time?

David Johnson (54:59)
Exactly. Yep.

It fluxes between at at the at our thinnest, we might be down to two projects at once. We we've had as much as like I think six or seven going simultaneously. And and they're often it it's usually like one to four people that that then lead in. And our team is we're up to like fifteen fifteen people right now.

Jake Simpson (55:29)
Mm. Same size I am. at the moment although, you know, I can announce that I'm I am going to be c partnering with DJ shortly. We're going to be asking him to to help us out with one other product somewhere. I am so looking forward to that. And and we have a mutual friend Faraji who works for for DJ as well that you know I'm really looking forward to to interacting with professionally because my god that man can shrink. and and and you've heard and cheat at darts, I'm just saying.

David Johnson (55:41)
All right, let's do it.

Yeah.

Jake Simpson (56:00)
So,

David Johnson (56:01)
He'll he'll give you shit for that, I'm sure.

Jake Simpson (56:04)
But anyway, yeah,

David Johnson (56:07)
Did someone throw the dart and it hit the power button? Yes. That's a game on it.

Jake Simpson (56:12)
reset

button. We went Farage and I were playing darts at DJ's house. it's electronic darts. And I think Farage I don't know whether he was winning or not, but I threw a dart and it re hit the reset button and reset the game and Farage was just like, Did you do that on purpose? And I'm like, of course I did.

David Johnson (56:28)
Wait, did you just say he yeah you said he was the one who was cheating?

Jake Simpson (56:31)
I

I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, we've we've there's been some good times with you guys, I must say. And yeah, we we do a beside this yulia thing with in Vegas as well, which is great. And Yeah. I'm actually funny enough, I'm looking right at some of your wife's art. So y his DJ's wife, one of the things she does at the sideline is an art and I've actually got one of her yeah, let me show you with my video. I have one of her paintings on the wall right there.

David Johnson (56:34)
Yeah.

Yeah. She's got a a show coming up. it's called LA Love, and there's some other pretty, pretty big artists names in that one too. Last year it had like Shepard Ferry and Retina and and some some pretty heavy hitters. This year's gonna be Risk and a couple other like really killer like street artists. Okay in that show. But yeah, she's she's she's on the bill. That's pretty cool.

Jake Simpson (57:26)
It's

all good. Okay. Well, I've got to say thank you for your time. It's been about just about an hour now. So I'm really thanking you for your time. That's been a wonderful conversation. You you know, you're one of my heroes, Steve, I've got to tell you. it's always good to talk to you, always good to spend time with you. And so thanks again for spending your time on my little podcast.

David Johnson (57:44)
Yeah, thanks for having me, man. Look looking forward to our next Vegas run.

All right, we'll see ya.